Will that win her the election?
The most appropriate terms to describe how Kamala Harris triumphed over Donald Trump in Tuesday’s debate come not from political punditry but from the field of psychology: triggered, baited, ego deflated. In answer after answer Kamala Harris went straight for Donald Trump’s tender spots, calling him weak, saying he was an easy target for dictators “who can manipulate you with flattery,” and that he was having a “difficult time processing” that he actually lost the last election.
Harris laid obvious traps, like saying people left his rallies “out of exhaustion and boredom,” for example, and he walked into nearly all of them. The result was that Trump was too distracted to land many punches.
The following is a transcript of the episode:
Hanna Rosin: So, people often say that presidential debates don’t really move the needle, unless something goes wrong. We’ve had two debates this election. The first one mattered because something went wrong for Biden. Today, we’re going to talk about why this one also mattered. Because it went very wrong for Trump. Like, even many Republicans said that.
Elaine Godfrey: Hi, Hanna.
Mark Leibovich: Hi, Hanna.
Rosin: So, we’re taping the day after the debate. The last time the two of you were on the show was two months ago, after the disastrous Biden debate. Where do you think Democrats are now?
Godfrey: A much better place. That feels like eons ago that we did that.
Rosin: Well, like, actually. Mark the moment. Sort of: Where are they actually now?
Leibovich: Bringing everyone up to date. Uh, about two months ago, Democrats, or, you know, the Biden-Trump debate: total disaster for Biden.
Everyone knew it. You know, within five minutes. And then: a summer that people will write books about for, I think, years.
Godfrey: Nope.
Leibovich: However, I will skim a book about it because, you know, we all lived through it very vividly. But, no: So the events that happened on June 27, I believe it was, resulted in a chain reaction that, as we all know, ended up in Biden dropping out, Harris becoming the nominee, and a great deal of momentum. Which seemed to be flagging a little bit for Harris.
But, you know, if it was, you would imagine it has picked right back up again after last night’s debate—which I think she won fairly convincingly.
Rosin: Elaine, what was the first moment that stood out for you?
Godfrey: Oh, the first moment for me was definitely the handshake. I was watching right away. I had paused my Roku so I could make sure to get the handshake. And like, I was getting popcorn ready. I was getting everything ready in my kitchen. Came out, watched her aggressively move across the stage toward him.
Went around the podium to demand the handshake. He looked very displeased.
Kamala Harris: Kamala Harris. Let’s have a good debate.
Donald Trump: Nice to see you. Have fun.
Kamala Harris: Thank you.
Godfrey: Just thought that was sort of … that really set the tone, I think, for the rest of the debate.
Rosin: In what way? Because, Mark, you actually mentioned to me before the debate that you were going to watch out for the handshake, and if you advised her, you advised her to do exactly what she did: which was walk up to him and give him a handshake. What was the significance of the handshake?
Leibovich: It was a power move. It was absolutely a power move by someone who had a wide opening to do it, which is—you go onto a stage with someone you’ve never met before. She was assertive in that she walked into his space. I mean, don’t underestimate the power of space and space-taking and space invasion and all that.
And he didn’t quite know how to react. It was an awkward encounter. But she was in command of it. I mean, she said, “Hi, I’m Kamala Harris.” I don’t know if she rehearsed that or not. But what was clear to me was in the first few minutes of the debate, he seemed a little bit off balance. I mean, she seemed more nervous than off balance.
But it was almost as if he was regretting or second-guessing or seething. Something about, I think, that first encounter really set him off on a bad note.
Rosin: Mhm. So on a recent episode of this show, George Conway was on, and we talked about the explicit strategy of mocking and goading Trump that they were trying out at the Democratic National Convention. Conway said on that episode that he had told the Democrats they should hire a team of psychological professionals to advise them how to get under Trump’s skin.
I mean, I got the feeling that maybe they had hired a team of psychological professionals to help them get under Trump’s skin. I mean, it really felt like a psychological operation as much as a political operation.
Leibovich: No, he didn’t at all. And, you know, he just couldn’t. And I don’t know if that was by design. I mean, he does not seem terribly coachable. I mean, you can imagine any number of debate preppers, if he had any at all, would say, ‘Look, I mean, you know, your resting face is going to be on camera. Uh, when you look at her or don’t look at her, that will be evident on camera.’
She clearly was well prepared. And I think also—and I don’t know if I should say this, but I’ll say it anyway. She clearly was well prepared. Um, she was not Biden. And what I mean by that is, her face moved. I mean, Biden’s face did not move at all.
Rosin: You’re right. The resting face of Biden was almost what killed him in the last debate. Besides that, sort of—
Leibovich: —when he spoke.
Rosin: Besides what he spoke. But it was his resting face, which—
Leibovich: Yes, it was like, kind of the mouth slightly agape. But she, I mean, I just couldn’t stop being grateful that she was not Joe Biden. Sorry, Joe Biden lovers out there. It was the newness of her, the freshness of her face. I don’t mean to sound shallow, but it was just a really great asset for her side.
Rosin: For me, like, [when] the debate turned and she was trying to trigger him was when she was asked a question about immigration.
Now, this is her weakest spot and then, this was a few minutes into the debate. What is her biggest weakness? First, she says, you know, “I prosecuted.” Then she talks about him killing the border-security bill.
You know, he makes him seem selfish, like she’s already goading him. And then out of nowhere, she turns it into this thing about how his rallies are lame.
Harris: You will see, during the course of his rallies, he talks about fictional characters like Hannibal Lecter. He will talk about when mills cause cancer.
And what you will also notice is that people start leaving his rallies early out of exhaustion and boredom.
Rosin: And then, boom, what does he say two minutes later?
Godfrey: Rallies are not lame!
Trump: She can’t talk about that. People don’t leave my rallies. We have the biggest rallies, the most incredible rallies in the history of politics.
Rosin: Also, he says the sentence “In Springfield, they’re eating the dogs.”
Trump: In Springfield, they’re eating the dogs. The people that came in, they’re eating the cats, they’re eating, they’re eating the pets.
Rosin: And that was the end. I mean, that was the end. It sort of all went downhill from there. So when you guys were watching the debate, what was your reaction to that moment?
Like, after that, at the end of every answer or non-answer that she gave, she would bait him with something, like, you know, your family left you 400,000, or whatever it—
Rosin: You wish it was 400.
Godfrey: 400,000,000?
Rosin: Wasn’t—
Rosin: Right. Right.
Leibovich: Yeah, no, I mean: I don’t think, you know, you need George Conway’s three or four psychological experts to know how to get under his skin.
Rosin: And when he would answer—like, if you take that immigration answer, obviously the correct political move would be not to say “My crowds are big” but to get back to the immigration question, which is her weakness. So what were the opportunities he missed by constantly taking the bait?
Godfrey: Well, I think that we were expecting him to go in talking about—at least, there was one story saying, “He’s going to go after her prosecutorial record.” He didn’t do that a single time.
Rosin: Right. Right.
Godfrey: Was doing it totally on defense. She made it a total referendum on him. It was not at all him attacking her for anything.
I mean, he had tons of room to also say, “Hey, you didn’t answer that question about, you know, your pivot on fracking, your pivot on Medicare for All, et cetera. Because she didn’t, really. And he could have called her on it. And he didn’t because he was too busy distracted by his own, you know, ego.
Leibovich: Yeah. I mean, anytime the conversation turns to immigration, I mean, it’s like a big, however-many-minute-long gift to him. And he just wasted it by taking the other bait. I mean, you know, I think one thing that helped Harris a lot—and we’ll probably get more to this—one of the questions that Trump got was about abortion.
